SEASON 1: EPISODE 2 TRANSCRIPT

Hope Isn't Free

Annie F. Downs: One of the things that I really appreciate about hope is that it isn't free. It's not one of the fruits of the spirit. It's not one of the things that we get just for signing up. It is our suffering that produces perseverance in us, that builds our character, that gives us hope. And so what I find myself doing is noticing places where I feel like I'm suffering, or noticing places where it feels like it's requiring a little more of me, than going like, "Oh, but if you'll just hang on." Here's what's coming is really strong character, and after that, you're full of hope. And so that's where I'm seeing hope is I'm watching people persevere through suffering.

Dr. Greg Jones: Our world is facing significant challenges, and at every turn, another conflict seems to await. Yet we survive. We overcome. We even thrive by relying on an intangible and undeniable gift, hope. It fills us, connects us, highlights our individual purpose, and unites us in the goal to do more together. Hope fuels us toward flourishing as people and as a community. My name is Greg Jones, president of Belmont University, and I'm honored to be your guide through candid conversations with people who demonstrate what it really means to live with hope and lean into the lessons they've picked up along their journey. They are The Hope People.

Joining me today are two agents of hope, bestselling author and fellow podcaster, Annie F. Downs, who you heard from moments ago, and Kelli Haywood, owner of KCH Entertainment and co-partner of the That Sounds Fun podcast network. As you'll hear through our conversation, these two champions of hope are successful business partners, trusted friends, and followers in faith. Their mission to create purposeful and encouraging content is intended to leave the world a better place than they found it.

Kelli Haywood: When I think of hope in my life right now, it really is so firmly grounded in the people I'm walking life with, that I get to look in the eyes and have real conversations with, that I get to go through daily life with. It just kind of brings me back to the reality of, we're not that divided, if we would just sit and connect with one another on things that we all can agree on, which is the basics of life.

Dr. Greg Jones: I want to talk to you, Annie, about your vocation. The accolades for your work are pretty extraordinary in terms of the impact. We could quote numbers and all sorts of things for your podcasts, your writing, your teaching, your speaking, your preaching, in so many ways, and yet that's not the path that you were starting out on. How did you end up where you are now?

Annie F. Downs: So I went to University of Georgia, and I studied elementary school education. I knew, pretty early, I mean, I remember loving my third grade teacher, Mrs. Albers so much, that I couldn't imagine doing another job for my life. I just thought, "I want to do this. I want to be Ms. Albers for as many people as I can be Ms. Albers for." I never considered another occupation. I just went straight into teaching. And I was noticing, as I was teaching elementary school, how much I loved that they would learn something and be different for it.

At the same time, I started getting opportunities to lead at my church's youth group, to be a counselor for younger people, to be a mentor and discipleship leader for younger people, and I ended up one semester writing a curriculum for the young women in our youth group for all the high school girls. And fast forward a year, and at the end of that year, one of the girls says to me, "Annie, can you print one more of these and staple it for me so I can give it to my friend like a book?" And I was like, "Like a book. Did I just write a book?" Because I really hadn't intended on it.

So what ends up happening is, I decided then, okay, well, how do you become a writer? How do you write Christian books? So I Googled it and I found a Christian writers conference in Atlanta where I lived at the time. And sure enough, I was there for about an hour and a half and I thought, these are my people. And so that's how I really got into this is that first book ended up... I mean, six years later, after I wrote the book, it got published by Zondervan, and that one's called Perfectly Unique. It's the first book I ever wrote, and it's still dear to me. It has not aged perfectly, but neither have I. I mean, that is the reality of books is they are written in a season of your life where you do the best you can with what you know. And that's true for every book I've ever written, but I'm still very proud of it because it was the first one. And I wrote it for girls in my living room. And so that's kind of how this started. And after that, I was kind of, kindly from God, feel like I've been tied to the front of a train.

Dr. Greg Jones: I want to pick up on that six years, because you weren't exactly an overnight success. And you got a lot of rejections with the first book.

Annie F. Downs: Like 47. Which is more than there are publishers, as you know. And yeah, it was really hard. And I wrote it in 2006. I worked on it, moved up to Nashville in 2008, and signed with an agent in 2009. Now it's easy to say those numbers to you, but every day in between, I was having to figure out how to pay my bills. Because I thought I'm going to move to Nashville and be a writer, and here we go.

And then finally, when I did get a book offer in 2011, it was for $7,000. Well, that is not a year's salary for anyone. That is significantly below every poverty line in America. And so even when I did get the thing I wanted, it was unable, at the time, to meet all my financial needs. And so it's just the story of six years of rejections, six years of going, if I'm not a writer, then what am I? And that was really important. It was the kindness of God, all those rejections, because He separated my identity from my career. The kindness of God reminded me that I'm Annie first and I'm Annie F. Downs second. And so the big wins are beautiful and they're so fun for our team, and I can't do anything on my own. None of this happened when I didn't have a team. So much of this is because of the people God's brought around me, like Kelli Haywood. But that is still separate for me as a person. This can all go away. And what God and I really are going to come face to face about on Judgment Day is still all true. How am I treating people around me? Do I love first? Am I sharing the Gospel with my life? Not how many books are sold or how many people listen to the podcast, but who are you and how are you living in life with Jesus? That's the Annie problem. That's the Annie stuff to sort out. But I needed those years of rejection to be able to know that.

Dr. Greg Jones: That's beautiful. Kelli, tell me your story, and how you and Annie first met and your journey to this relationship and work.

Kelli Haywood: Yeah. Annie and I actually started as friends. When she moved to Nashville, we had mutual friends. And we had an instant connection. I think you're drawn to people who are passionate about something, and I was definitely drawn to her excitement for what she was doing and what she was pursuing. But also, we just had fun together. I was in the music business at the time, and the one thing that a lot of people don't know is, Annie has been brilliant about her career, even when she did have that $7,000 advance. Early on in her career, she didn't have the ability to pay for management and have an agent on board. And so the way that she worked around that to get people around her to advise her is, she built a board of directors. And it was just, I think three of us.

Annie F. Downs: Three people that I respected in three different areas of business. And I bought them dinner once a quarter. And so the three of them, Keith Bordeaux from Compassion International, Kyle Chowning, who runs a marketing company, and then Kelli, who was a really high up exec in music. And I thought, I just need accountability around me, and Kelli was one of the first asks for that.

Kelli Haywood: Yeah. So that's what we did. And no one else thinks about doing that kind of thing. I just remember thinking, this is brilliant, that she wants to engage with a group of people to help her make decisions. And she didn't listen to every single thing we said, but it was an opportunity for us to get together and help create something for her to bounce ideas off of and make decisions off of.

I continued to work in the music industry. I eventually took a job in management and then took a couple of years off when I had my second child. And we stayed in contact during that whole time. And just about the time, whenever I was thinking, what does the Lord have for me in this next phase of my life? Annie and I had dinner with another friend of ours one night and said, "I need management. I'm ready to take that step, in order for me to scale what I feel like I need to scale for my business." And I was like, "Yes. You do."

Annie F. Downs: I mean, I remember saying, "I know you're retired, but is there another you?" And she said, "What if I did it?" And I was like, "What?" I mean, I canceled a flight to LA that night, because I was interviewing with a manager in LA when Kelli said, "I'll do it. Let's talk." And I was like, "That is more than I could have ever dreamed of. You know everything. You've been in this since 2009 or something. You've watched my entire career. I didn't dream that I could bring you out of retirement." And now I've really done it. I've really messed up her life. She was so low stress before that dinner at 360 or whatever.

Kelli Haywood: Yeah, that's right.

Dr. Greg Jones: How did that happen?

Kelli Haywood: Well, the truth of the matter is that, one of the first things that I did when I came in with Annie is that, we were negotiating a deal, a podcast network deal for her. And as I was getting through the deal points and the weeds of that, I just did not feel good about it. And I just said to her, I said, "We can do this now without this network. You're already doing this. Why would we go sign away our rights if we can do it ourselves?" And it kind of stemmed something in her of, "Okay. If we can do this for us," looking at me, trusting me that I was telling the truth, "that I could do this, that maybe we could do this for other people." So we put that in our five-year plan. I mean, Annie and I sit down and we have annual meetings where we have visions for five, 10 years. And then of course, we plan the year out in front of us. But this was on the five-year plan.

Annie F. Downs: In 2019.

Kelli Haywood: In 2019.

Annie F. Downs: It was on the five-year plan and it was created by May of 2020. We need a third leg that slows us down. We need someone to grab the reins of these two wild horses.

Kelli Haywood: But part of that was strictly what had happened. 2020 brought the pandemic. Along with everyone else that's in this industry, everything stopped. So we pivoted, as most everyone in business had to do in 2020. We were like, "Let's go ahead and take something that we had planned for in four years, let's move it up. Let's go. We've got two shows that we know need help and need a way to get it out and let's just try it." And so we hired our first person who worked for the network, and we launched, I think, two or was it three shows?

Annie F. Downs: Three, because it was my show, That Sounds Fun, and then Dadville with Dave Barnes and Jon McLaughlin, Emily P. Freeman's Next Right Thing, and then Annie and Eddie Keep Talking, another show we had. But I mean, really, the beautiful thing, Kelli's right, our trust between each other is very high. I mean, we ask a lot of questions, but it is not out of a lack of trust. It's just, help me understand. And so building things together is very easy, even when it's really hard. I'd been on two networks as a podcaster. And I'd had experiences that were good at both and I'd had experiences that I wish were better at both. And so when Kelli starts going, "What if we did this in-house?", I went, "I actually know how to do this because of my experiences I've had." We had no idea, three years later, we would have 20 something shows on the network and six staff. I mean, we couldn't have dreamed this up.

But that beginning felt very like, oh, oh, it's right in front of us. We just get to choose to do it or not. And sometimes, it's right to see the thing right in front of you and not do it. Though this ain't the right time or we don't have the bandwidth or the people or whatever, but we knew we had what we needed.

Dr. Greg Jones: I want to come back to that trust, and the way, Kelli, you described the relationship beginning as a friendship. Because I think there's something important to that friendship and the trust that enables you to take risks together and to listen to the other and think, "I'm not sure I get it yet, but let's try it in that way." How has that enabled you to grow things, much quicker and bigger, more imaginatively than you would've perhaps done if you started out as business partners?

Annie F. Downs: Well, what's funny is, when we started, probably in the first six months, we had a couple of times that employees or people that work around us would ask mom when dad had said no kind of thing. And so we got this opportunity pretty early to even say to each other, "Did they think they were going to get a different answer from me than you? Oh, okay. Well, we need to be so sure that we would give the same answer, or that we would be good with the answer you gave, that we don't get mom and dad vibes anymore of people going, well, if she said no, she'll say yes." And I think that gave us some opportunity to let the trust deepen, and it straightened up our partners, and people to go, "Oh, if Annie says this, that's what Kelli would say yes to as well."

But you're right. The fact that we watch football games together on the weekends helps. And the thing that just keeps coming to mind, Kelli, you might have a different answer, is the trust has built because we've gotten to practice it for four years now. We had a deep level of trust. But when you get to get on the field, the game changes. It's not just practice anymore. You actually are getting muddy. And we've gotten muddy a lot. And so then you go, "Man, I'm so glad we're on the same." I mean, if not daily, multiple times a week, I think, I'm so lucky to have Kelli and I on the same team. I wouldn't do this with anybody else.

Kelli Haywood: There's so much about the gift that we've had time to build it. Sometimes, you have to jump in quickly and you have to trust somebody quickly, and that's a whole different situation with other challenges. With us, we did get to build a foundation of trust just through friendship, knowing that we have similar motivations in life, similar foundation. So that was a gift in our relationship, that we had already built kind of that baseline of trust. And then whenever you start to go into business with each other, she got to see how I did business, separate from her. I got to see how she did business, because I was on the board and saw how she made decisions. And then we practice it. And we haven't always done it perfectly, truthfully.

Annie F. Downs: That's right.

Dr. Greg Jones: I love that. Kelli, I want to pick up on the That Sounds Fun Network webpage. It says you all are creating "purposeful and encouraging content, inspired to leave the world better than we found it." That's a beautiful description. What does that mean to you in terms of how you think about the storytelling and podcasting and inspiring hope in leaving the world better than you found it?

Kelli Haywood: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that we, as a network, all of our shows are different. They fill different needs in the world, whether that's comedy, making people laugh, whether it's counseling, helping people find words for their feelings and how to deal with hard situations. So we very pointedly have chosen all of these different diverse bit of content that goes out into the world. And the foundation of all of our podcast hosts is that they believe in Jesus. Jesus is the central figure in their life, but that doesn't mean that all of the content that we put out is Christ-focused.

So one of the things that we really talk about a lot whenever we're planning, whenever we're bringing on new shows, is will this show make the world better, more than worse? Are they filling a need that we feel like needs to be met and it's not being met somewhere else? And we really do try to create an environment that fosters community for those podcasters so that they know that they have a place to talk to other podcast hosts, get ideas, share challenges in the medium. But ultimately, we're giving them the opportunity to continue to grow and touch lives with what they're creating. And we hope that it will make people better.

Dr. Greg Jones: That's beautiful, and the range of things you do, it covers the full range of human experience in beautiful ways. Annie, you talk a lot in your books and podcasts about faith as a journey, and that it's okay to have struggles, doubts, that there are twists and turns. I love the quote you gave the Wall Street Journal interview recently. You say, "I wouldn't god the way God gods, but I recognize that He loves in ways I don't understand. The older I get, I think life proves itself to be tragic, and God proves Himself to be faithful." Talk with us about what you mean by that and how you find hope in the midst of life feeling tragic.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. I grew up in the faith. My parents have taken me to church my whole life. I remember committing my life to Christ at five years old. And so I don't have these memories, like a lot of my friends do and a lot of our friends listening do of like, "Well, I didn't become a Christian until I was 18, or I didn't become a Christian until I was 40, and therefore, here's what life was like without Jesus." Instead, what I have is, I've always known Jesus, and yet life has not been easy. I don't know whether this was caught or taught when I was growing up, but Jesus says, life is going to be hard, but have courage because He's with us. And I remember thinking, oh, I bet it did. But there are certain things that are off limits, right? There are certain things that God won't let happen to me, and that has not proven true. And so I think, particularly in that conversation, I was thinking, "Man, there are so many times where I would do this differently if I was in charge. And yet, God's faithfulness, over my 43 years, is really deeply apparent." And so I can only imagine looking forward what I know looking back. What I know looking back is the stories I didn't understand that God was doing something different. I mean, an example is, my sister and her husband had a child last year that only lived two months. That is not a story I would've written. That does not make sense to me. That's not thriving. That's death, not life. I don't understand. But we still have to go, "Okay, looking back, God's been faithful. Therefore, looking forward, He will be faithful. It is what is true about Him." So I thought it's a version of something I've heard the counselor, Steven James, say a lot, is that life is going to be tragic, and so we don't have to be shocked about that part. I think I'm tired of being shocked about tragedy is part of it. And so we go, okay, I am going to embrace that there are really tragic parts of this. That's why we need to have these glimpses of joy and fun in our regular life, in our every day, because the overall theme is not great. And so can you find His faithfulness in your Tuesday? Because it may be harder to find it in your month. But if you found it in your Tuesday, well, then I can do today. And so that to me has been what I want to share public. It is the story I want to tell with my life, 10 years of a career that has impacted a lot of people. And 19 staff members that we get to help be generous with their lives and their money and their time, that's more than I could have asked or imagined. And yet, there was also tragedy in it too.

Dr. Greg Jones: There's a beautiful scene in a novel by Wallace Stegner called Crossing to Safety. And they're in Italy and the wife has some kind of physical ailment. I think it's multiple sclerosis, but she uses braces to walk. And they're with another couple who's all about joy and happiness in a superficial sense. And they come across a painting of Piero della Francesca, of Christ starting up behind the tomb. And the resurrection is happening, but He was very recently dead. And the narrator says that Sally stopped, as her friend Charity just breezes on by. And the narrator says, "Sally kept looking at the painting because it was as if those who have died can see things that those who have only lived can never see."

Annie F. Downs: Wow.

Dr. Greg Jones: And I just think of that so often of people, like your sister and brother-in-Law, who suffer and ask questions, that there's a pain that also enables you to see things that you can't otherwise see.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, that's right.

Dr. Greg Jones: We're living in a time that's pretty challenging and difficult. Kelli, why don't you go first and what's bringing you hope or giving you inspiration these days?

Kelli Haywood: When I think of hope in my life right now, it really is so firmly grounded in the people I'm walking life with, that I get to look in the eyes and have real conversations with, that I get to go do through daily life with, take our kids to school together. It just kind of brings me back to the reality of, we're not that divided, if we would just sit and connect with one another on things that we all can agree on, which is the basics of life.

Dr. Greg Jones: Great. Annie?

Annie F. Downs: One of the things that I really appreciate about hope is that it isn't free. It's not one of the fruits of the spirit. It's not one of the things that we get just for signing up. Romans says that it is our suffering that produces perseverance in us, that builds our character, that gives us hope. And so what I find myself doing is noticing places where I feel like I'm suffering, or noticing places where it feels like it's requiring a little more of me, and the people that I love. I see it in some family members' lives. I see it in some of my friends' lives and going like, "Oh, but if you'll just hang on, here's what's coming." Here's what's coming is really strong character. And after that, you're full of hope. And it is what sets us apart. They believe there's something worth doing good towards. And so that's where I'm seeing hope is I'm watching people persevere through suffering.

Dr. Greg Jones: That's beautiful. It's not the kind of thing that we want to encourage, and yet, it's often the laboratory we learn.

Annie F. Downs: That's right. That's right. We want to eject, and the Lord says, "Stay. Stay, stay, stay, because this will pay off."

Dr. Greg Jones: I want to take you both back to an event in the spring that was really hard in Nashville, the Covenant School shooting. And we hosted at the Fisher Center an evening, a Night of Hope. And you hosted it. It turned out to be a night of healing, as well as incredible joy. Take us back through the days leading up to that, and the conversations between the two of you all and how you wanted to convey a sense of hope and healing, in the midst of what had to feel both personally and you could feel it in the whole city, a kind of communal grief and almost despair at that particular time.

Annie F. Downs: Yes. I have a lot of personal connection with Covenant people that I really love our students and teachers and faculty there. The day of the shooting, there was nothing else that mattered, except being on our phones to find out if our friends and their kids were okay. So when that call came, there are times, there have probably been maybe four times in my life, that I thought, I was made for this. And I remember thinking that about that night. I thought, I don't know that I'll do well at this. I hope I will. But there is a world where God has woven my life in a way that I am made to host this night. And it wasn't perfect. I wasn't perfect at it, but I did feel this innate sense of, if this is the last thing I do, great. What a great way to honor my friends who are suffering.

Kelli Haywood: And I think too, everyone in the community was just doing what they could do-

Annie F. Downs: In their strength.

Kelli Haywood: In their strength. And so when you get those phone calls and you start to build something like that, you just go, God is asking us to use our gifts to help heal our community. I mean, Belmont giving us the stage, everyone did what they could do in their gifts, so that they could help try to begin a very, very, very long process of healing.

Dr. Greg Jones: That's beautiful. And I think that what you both do through the podcast network and all of the range of work you do is create those moments that become iconic memories for people. As we come toward a close, I want to invite each of you to offer some advice about the other, in terms of, we've got people listening who might be future Annie F. Downs like people, performers and writers, or they might be the kind of person like a Kelli who wants to be, the behind the scenes, brains, who makes it all work and become magical. And so, Annie, let me start with you. What advice would you have for somebody who wants to become a Kelli in the future?

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that Kelli does so well is, she isn't a yes man to me, but she's a yes man, meaning, she doesn't let me do whatever I want, but she does not squash my ideas. She just listens really well. And so what I would encourage anyone who wants to step into being the executive behind a creative adventure, of any kind, is as the creator is telling you what they want to do, don't say why they can't, say why they can. And if you can learn the difference between being a yes man who goes, "Yeah, we'll do whatever we can. If it costs us everything, we'll build it, no matter what," that person actually doesn't serve me very well. Because the first three times, that is so fun and I want to pay them whatever they want. And then the fourth time, we have a huge flop because their wisdom was higher than my wisdom, but we didn't listen to it.

And so for a manager to learn the like, how do I say yes in the dreaming stage, in such a way that I can say no in the execution stage? And learning that fine line, Kelli is an expert at that line of going, "Yeah, Annie, I think that's a great idea. Let's try and see what happens." And then she goes, "Hey, we're going to do this and now it's going to cost you this." And there are other times where she says, "That is such a good idea. We cannot do that now. I love that idea. I think that idea is great," and I don't care if she loves it or not. She says it and it strokes my ego as much as I need. But finding that line, and that takes trial and error, but also an awareness that you want that line to exist as a manager is really important.

Kelli Haywood: Annie, I think you said something at the beginning. I can't remember exactly how you said it, but I think there's many different expressions of how our life is going to roll out, and I think you've got to be open to the fact that that may change. But then there are some of you out there that you know that God has given you something that is different. And He is calling you to be bold and to be brave and to suffer on your way there, because nothing great comes easy. I mean, Annie talked about her suffering here. There is no doubt that greatness comes from that suffering, and so you just have to persevere, and know and believe what you're hearing on the inside, and then find people around you to help.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. That would be my last piece of advice too, is between the two of us, there is not one job that is more important than the other. There are different expressions of what we do, but when we stand before the Lord, He's not going to have said to me, "Well, yeah, yours was pretty important compared to Kelli." That's not it. And so find a teammate who you know is as called to what they're doing, as you are to what you're doing, and public or private, front stage or backstage, it is more fun to run with people who are as sure of their calling as you are.

Dr. Greg Jones: Thank you for participating in this conversation with The Hope People. Our aim is to inspire you to become an agent of hope yourself, and to help us cultivate a sense of wellbeing for all. To join our mission and learn more about this show, visit thehopepeoplepodcast.com. If you enjoyed this conversation, remember to rate and review wherever you get your audio content.